The 7BS Structure - Page 3

**bafoil** · 10-14-2006, 11:51

what d think of ajusted LTC in BW 08/2006 p 41

**r_pakker** · 11-22-2006, 14:00

	Quote:	BnBeever
	Ronald, Anyway, after RKB, the side-suit control-asks tell only about 2nd and 3rd round controls - 1st round controls are never again shown. So for example, AJxxx and xxx are shown in exactly the same way (step 1 response), as neither have 2nd or 3rd round control. Ben.

Your 7BS kept me thinking. What was it that made it so attractive? And why i stilll have not proposed my partner to change our jacoby 2NT way bidding into "7BS 2NT". Part of it was/is this: after the sequence 1

/

-2NT.. the rest of the sequence is in hands of the opener... even if the hand of 2NT answerer is stronger, the opener is in command.
I have been thinking along the following lines: no need for 3NT and 4NT bids so i use these bids for control bids. Meaning of an NT bid: first/second round control last bid suit and in all suits i pass with this bid.
Returning to this "unsure slam hand":
North

K3

AQT65

KQ6

T74

South

AQJ2

KJ74

J5

AJ9
bidding:
1H-2NT
3C-3H
3NT-4C

3NT i know hearts is trump, but i got a first or second round control in it, and i got first second round control in spades..
4C- nice to hear partner, i got a first/second round control in clubs)

4D-4S

4D..1/2control in diamonds
4S 1/2rnd control in spades

5H-6H

5H I told you evry thing about my hand, control-wise
6H.. since you skipped bidding clubs (no control there, i risk 6H cause i have the ace of clubs)

Just a first line of thinking about how to incorporate 7BS into our way of bidding controls.

Do you have any suggestions or is this leading to nothing in your opinion..

(and by no way i am an expert, not bidding-wise, not playing-wise; i just like to think about bridge.. and you helped me to a lot of new thoughts..)

Ronald

**ArcLight** · 11-22-2006, 18:31

What are the HCP ranges for the Mini Splinter and the Void splinter?

(total points = HCP + distributional points)

13-16 total points for both?
With more you bid 2NT?

10-12 total points = Limit Raise.

If I understand the system - the next step above 2NT (3 Clubs) is RKCBW. Do the other steps retain their normal J2NT meaning?

1

- 2NT
3

means what? Singleton Diamond?

Is opener alwas expected to make the step 1 response?

At first glance it looks like this works ok when you have a massive hand. But what about when a minimum opener faces a minumum J2nt?

Slam bidding frequently is not just about Aces, but about having a source of tricks. You can make a slam if you have enough high cards, but I don't see this method finding a double fit, that allows slams to be made with fewer points.

Please post some examples from play where this system found good slams others missed, andstayed out of bad slams.

**BnBeever** · 11-22-2006, 22:57

I'll answer both sets of questions:

Firstly, Ronald:

Yes you can certainly use the NT bids for whatever you like after the major has been agreed, as the chance of actualy wanting to play in NT is almost zero (and even when NT will score better, it is pretty much impossible to know).

The system you are suggesting will indeed occasionally find some slams that 7BS won't, and will stay out of the odd poor slam that 7BS will bid. I'm sure it will also miss a few good slams that 7BS will find too tho. What you are proposing is essentially a multi-cue-bid system - something which many experts already play (tho they doesn't use Blackwood first) and I agree it is very playable. The main disadvantages to cue bidding strategies (as I see it, tho I'm not an expert in this area) is that there are difficulties in judgement with knowing when to carry on cue-bidding (and when to sign off), there is often ambiguity as to which type of control is being shown, and it can take too many rounds of bidding before doubletons/queems are found/shown.

The main reason I like 7BS rather than cue-bidding tho, is that one partner simply asks questions about the other's hand, and the other partner just answers them, with minimal thinking required by either of them, so it's easy to use (once the step responses are learnt). Conservation of bidding space is another benefit, and the fact that declarer discloses nothing about his hand is a third.

Having said all this, the most fun (at least for me) in bridge comes from designing usable bidding structures, and seeing them work well, so I encourage you to experiment in this area. I assume after 1

/

-2NT, your 3

was still RKB, and your cue bidding happens after this. It is certainly unusual to cue bid 1st and 2nd round controls after Blackwood, but your idea has the definite advantage (over standard cue bidding) of knowing that slam is worth exploring (fewer than 2 key cards missing) before investigating which suits are controlled. Hope this helps.

Arclight:

Hence the name of the system, in 7BS responder needs 7 losers (or 10+pts) to bid the 2NT (balanced agreement) or make a mini or void splinter. There is no maximum strength for these bids, as there is enough room for the useful cards in a strong responders hand to be revealed. After a void splinter, opener may try to sign off in game with a minimum or disliking the void, but a strong (about 5 losers or better) responder may simply bid step 1 for exclusion RKB to continue to investigate.
Unless playing the 'Bergen' extension of 7BS, a raise to 3 shows 4 trumps, and 8 losers. With 3 trumps and 8 losers, bid something else first, then support opener's suit on the next bid.

After 2NT or a mini-splinter, opener bids 3 of the trump suit to show a minimum or step 1 for RKB. This is the important part of the system. The meanings for any bids inbetween are not prescribed. I've personally tried out several different meanings for them, but any hands where I wouldn't want to use RKB or show a minimum occur very rarely. One possibility is that opener is minimum with a void. Another is to show a near minimum without a void. I didn't want to make things more complicated than they needed to be, hence this omission.

Whilst I agree that short-pointed slams can be made with a double fit, many more can be made with 2nd and 3rd round controls in the right places (tho these views are not so far apart). All I can say, is that, using 7BS, we very rarely miss a 'good' slam, and even rarer after immediate agreement of opener's major.

Here are 2 slams that are not too easy to bid without 7BS:

1)

AKxxxx .. Qxx
....

Kx ........ Axxx
....

Kxx ....... Ax
....

Qx ........ Kxxx

1S-2NT-3C-3NT-4C-4S-5D-5S-6S

2)

Axx ...... KQxx
....

KQJTx .. Axx
....

Axx ...... x
....

xx ........ AKxxx

1H-3D-3S-4D-4S-5H-6C-6S-7H

And here's a non-making slam that's hard to stay out of, but 7BS does:

3)

AK763 ... xxx
....

AQ ....... Kx
....

J9752 ... AKx
....

9 ......... AQJxx

1S-2NT-3C-3S-4D-4NT-5C-5H-5S

Ben.

**ArcLight** · 11-22-2006, 23:52

>>>And here's a non-making slam that's hard to stay out of, but 7BS does:

3) AK763 ... xxx
....AQ ....... Kx
....J9752 ... AKx
....9 ......... AQJxx

1S-2NT-3C-3S-4D-4NT-5C-5H-5S

-> This does not qualify for a Jacoby 2NT response because it lacks 4 trumps. Instead bid 2 Clubs playing 2/1
1S - 2C GF
2D - 2S setting trump, probably 3 cards
(at this point a stiff in responders first big suit is a liability, and the diamond suit is awful, slam is not in the air)
What to bid? 3H? or 4S.
I think 4 Spades would be the final contract.
or maybe
3H - 4C
4S - ? responder does what?
Trump support is horrible - with just 3 how can you go on?

1) AKxxxx .. Qxx
....Kx ........ Axxx
....Kxx ....... Ax
....Qx ........ Kxxx

1S-2NT-3C-3NT-4C-4S-5D-5S-6S

-> This would not qualify for a Jacoby 2NT because of the lack of a 4th trump.
1S - 2C
2S - 3S
without using Italian cue bidding (where you can bid both Kings and aces first round) I would have to bid 4 Spades. Passed out.

2) Axx ...... KQxx
....KQJTx .. Axx
....Axx ...... x
....xx ........ AKxxx

1H-3D-3S-4D-4S-5H-6C-6S-7H

What is 4D?

-> This would not qualify for a splinter because of the lack of the 4th trump.

1H-2C
2H- 3H
3S - 4C
4D - 4S
4NT - 5H
6H
I wouldnt find the Grand

In all these cases I wonder if you were lucky because of the extra trump length or concentration of trump honors. 5-3 splits may not be enough for slam. I think this method is vulnerable to 4-1 trump splits (that occur 32% of the time). It seems like responder is making these BW bids even with non-slammish hands. If responder has a minimum 2NT bid (lets say 13 with 3 card suppor), I wonder if you will end up in slam?
I think judgment needs to be considered.

I'm not saying this system wont give some spectacular results, but I suspect it will also push you into some slams that don't work out, resulting in a net wash.

I'd very much like to hear more about the results of this system.
Do any top pairs use this system? If notm why? What are their objections?

**r_pakker** · 11-22-2006, 23:57

Ben,
Thank you for the quick response. I am going to find an on-line parter and do some exercises in the bidding-practice department of BBO..

Ronald

**r_pakker** · 11-23-2006, 13:40

some comments/questions:

Let's not confuse terms. Ben never used the term jacoby 2NT. In 7BS the response 2NT is telling: I got 7 or less (LTC)- losers and we have 8 or more trumps in our hands.
1-3 : I do not bid splinters, no mini's no maxi's or whatever splinters there are in this bridgeworld. I have found my "own" meaning for it when bidding jacoby 2NT too. There it would mean something like : we have 8+ in trumps; i have a first or second round control in spades, and 7 or less (LTC)losers. I am still thinking about ihow to integrate this in 7BS.
I think opener should now rebid 3NT (RKC)..
1-3.. does this bid in sayc or 2/1 mean a splinter.besides setting hearts as trumpsuit?
"In all these cases I wonder if you were lucky because of the extra trump length or concentration of trump honors. 5-3 splits may not be enough for slam.(quote Arclight)" ... seems to be quite nicely compensated by the way controls are asked in the suits where opener has his/her doubts.
"If responder has a minimum 2NT bid (lets say 13 with 3 card support) (quote Arclight)"
AQJ (trump suit)
KJxxx
Qxx
xx
13 HCP+ 3 card support. Maybe i would bid a pre-emptive 4.. But with 8 losers this hand does not qualify for 7BS_2NT.. i think...

**BnBeever** · 11-24-2006, 01:38

Arclight: Re -

2) Axx ...... KQxx
....KQJTx .. Axx
....Axx ...... x
....xx ........ AKxxx

1H-3D-3S-4D-4S-5H-6C-6S-7H

What is 4D?
4D is the response to opener's 3S (1430) - so 4D shows 2 KC, but no Q

.

And yes, when there are only 8 trumps between the hands, and there is a 4-1 trump split offside, then the slam will probably go down. But hey, live a little :-)

As for why 'experts' don't use such a 2NT response, I think acceptance of 'traditional wisdom' plays the main role. But I'll put it this way - if I knew of a better slam bidding structure (without damaging game-bidding) then I'd be using it!

Ronald: Re 1

-3

in SAYC or 2/1:

I suspect this shows a 5+ diamond suit and 13+ / 16+ pts, similar to ACOL, tho I may be wrong. It certainly isn't any kind of splinter unless agreed beforehand.

Re bidding unmakeable slams in 7BS - the LTC (assuming partner has 7 losers) gives opener a guide to the 'safe exploration level', and he should only go beyond this with good reason to do so (i.e. he can't see too many losers even if partner has nothing else besides what has already been shown). Once in a while we bid a slam that turns out to have below 50% chance of making (when dummy appears), but the large majority are 50% or better.

Ben.

10-14-2006, 11:51	#21
bafoil Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Lehavre Posts: 1 Country:	Re: The 7BS Structure what d think of ajusted LTC in BW 08/2006 p 41

11-22-2006, 18:31	#23
ArcLight Teacher Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Millburn, NJ Posts: 141 Country:	Re: The 7BS Structure What are the HCP ranges for the Mini Splinter and the Void splinter? (total points = HCP + distributional points) 13-16 total points for both? With more you bid 2NT? 10-12 total points = Limit Raise. If I understand the system - the next step above 2NT (3 Clubs) is RKCBW. Do the other steps retain their normal J2NT meaning? 1 - 2NT 3 means what? Singleton Diamond? Is opener alwas expected to make the step 1 response? At first glance it looks like this works ok when you have a massive hand. But what about when a minimum opener faces a minumum J2nt? Slam bidding frequently is not just about Aces, but about having a source of tricks. You can make a slam if you have enough high cards, but I don't see this method finding a double fit, that allows slams to be made with fewer points. Please post some examples from play where this system found good slams others missed, andstayed out of bad slams. Last edited by ArcLight : 11-22-2006 at 18:37.

11-22-2006, 22:57	#24
BnBeever Teacher Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Cheshire Posts: 21 Country:	Re: The 7BS Structure I'll answer both sets of questions: Firstly, Ronald: Yes you can certainly use the NT bids for whatever you like after the major has been agreed, as the chance of actualy wanting to play in NT is almost zero (and even when NT will score better, it is pretty much impossible to know). The system you are suggesting will indeed occasionally find some slams that 7BS won't, and will stay out of the odd poor slam that 7BS will bid. I'm sure it will also miss a few good slams that 7BS will find too tho. What you are proposing is essentially a multi-cue-bid system - something which many experts already play (tho they doesn't use Blackwood first) and I agree it is very playable. The main disadvantages to cue bidding strategies (as I see it, tho I'm not an expert in this area) is that there are difficulties in judgement with knowing when to carry on cue-bidding (and when to sign off), there is often ambiguity as to which type of control is being shown, and it can take too many rounds of bidding before doubletons/queems are found/shown. The main reason I like 7BS rather than cue-bidding tho, is that one partner simply asks questions about the other's hand, and the other partner just answers them, with minimal thinking required by either of them, so it's easy to use (once the step responses are learnt). Conservation of bidding space is another benefit, and the fact that declarer discloses nothing about his hand is a third. Having said all this, the most fun (at least for me) in bridge comes from designing usable bidding structures, and seeing them work well, so I encourage you to experiment in this area. I assume after 1/-2NT, your 3 was still RKB, and your cue bidding happens after this. It is certainly unusual to cue bid 1st and 2nd round controls after Blackwood, but your idea has the definite advantage (over standard cue bidding) of knowing that slam is worth exploring (fewer than 2 key cards missing) before investigating which suits are controlled. Hope this helps. Arclight: Hence the name of the system, in 7BS responder needs 7 losers (or 10+pts) to bid the 2NT (balanced agreement) or make a mini or void splinter. There is no maximum strength for these bids, as there is enough room for the useful cards in a strong responders hand to be revealed. After a void splinter, opener may try to sign off in game with a minimum or disliking the void, but a strong (about 5 losers or better) responder may simply bid step 1 for exclusion RKB to continue to investigate. Unless playing the 'Bergen' extension of 7BS, a raise to 3 shows 4 trumps, and 8 losers. With 3 trumps and 8 losers, bid something else first, then support opener's suit on the next bid. After 2NT or a mini-splinter, opener bids 3 of the trump suit to show a minimum or step 1 for RKB. This is the important part of the system. The meanings for any bids inbetween are not prescribed. I've personally tried out several different meanings for them, but any hands where I wouldn't want to use RKB or show a minimum occur very rarely. One possibility is that opener is minimum with a void. Another is to show a near minimum without a void. I didn't want to make things more complicated than they needed to be, hence this omission. Whilst I agree that short-pointed slams can be made with a double fit, many more can be made with 2nd and 3rd round controls in the right places (tho these views are not so far apart). All I can say, is that, using 7BS, we very rarely miss a 'good' slam, and even rarer after immediate agreement of opener's major. Here are 2 slams that are not too easy to bid without 7BS: 1) AKxxxx .. Qxx ....Kx ........ Axxx ....Kxx ....... Ax ....Qx ........ Kxxx 1S-2NT-3C-3NT-4C-4S-5D-5S-6S 2) Axx ...... KQxx ....KQJTx .. Axx ....Axx ...... x ....xx ........ AKxxx 1H-3D-3S-4D-4S-5H-6C-6S-7H And here's a non-making slam that's hard to stay out of, but 7BS does: 3) AK763 ... xxx ....AQ ....... Kx ....J9752 ... AKx ....9 ......... AQJxx 1S-2NT-3C-3S-4D-4NT-5C-5H-5S Ben.

11-22-2006, 23:52	#25
ArcLight Teacher Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Millburn, NJ Posts: 141 Country:	Re: The 7BS Structure >>>And here's a non-making slam that's hard to stay out of, but 7BS does: 3) AK763 ... xxx ....AQ ....... Kx ....J9752 ... AKx ....9 ......... AQJxx 1S-2NT-3C-3S-4D-4NT-5C-5H-5S -> This does not qualify for a Jacoby 2NT response because it lacks 4 trumps. Instead bid 2 Clubs playing 2/1 1S - 2C GF 2D - 2S setting trump, probably 3 cards (at this point a stiff in responders first big suit is a liability, and the diamond suit is awful, slam is not in the air) What to bid? 3H? or 4S. I think 4 Spades would be the final contract. or maybe 3H - 4C 4S - ? responder does what? Trump support is horrible - with just 3 how can you go on? 1) AKxxxx .. Qxx ....Kx ........ Axxx ....Kxx ....... Ax ....Qx ........ Kxxx 1S-2NT-3C-3NT-4C-4S-5D-5S-6S -> This would not qualify for a Jacoby 2NT because of the lack of a 4th trump. 1S - 2C 2S - 3S without using Italian cue bidding (where you can bid both Kings and aces first round) I would have to bid 4 Spades. Passed out. 2) Axx ...... KQxx ....KQJTx .. Axx ....Axx ...... x ....xx ........ AKxxx 1H-3D-3S-4D-4S-5H-6C-6S-7H What is 4D? -> This would not qualify for a splinter because of the lack of the 4th trump. 1H-2C 2H- 3H 3S - 4C 4D - 4S 4NT - 5H 6H I wouldnt find the Grand In all these cases I wonder if you were lucky because of the extra trump length or concentration of trump honors. 5-3 splits may not be enough for slam. I think this method is vulnerable to 4-1 trump splits (that occur 32% of the time). It seems like responder is making these BW bids even with non-slammish hands. If responder has a minimum 2NT bid (lets say 13 with 3 card suppor), I wonder if you will end up in slam? I think judgment needs to be considered. I'm not saying this system wont give some spectacular results, but I suspect it will also push you into some slams that don't work out, resulting in a net wash. I'd very much like to hear more about the results of this system. Do any top pairs use this system? If notm why? What are their objections? Last edited by ArcLight : 11-23-2006 at 00:00.

11-22-2006, 23:57	#26
r_pakker Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Netherlands Posts: 38 Country:	Re: The 7BS Structure Ben, Thank you for the quick response. I am going to find an on-line parter and do some exercises in the bidding-practice department of BBO.. Ronald

11-23-2006, 13:40	#27
r_pakker Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Netherlands Posts: 38 Country:	Re: The 7BS Structure some comments/questions: Let's not confuse terms. Ben never used the term jacoby 2NT. In 7BS the response 2NT is telling: I got 7 or less (LTC)- losers and we have 8 or more trumps in our hands. 1-3 : I do not bid splinters, no mini's no maxi's or whatever splinters there are in this bridgeworld. I have found my "own" meaning for it when bidding jacoby 2NT too. There it would mean something like : we have 8+ in trumps; i have a first or second round control in spades, and 7 or less (LTC)losers. I am still thinking about ihow to integrate this in 7BS. I think opener should now rebid 3NT (RKC).. 1-3.. does this bid in sayc or 2/1 mean a splinter.besides setting hearts as trumpsuit? "In all these cases I wonder if you were lucky because of the extra trump length or concentration of trump honors. 5-3 splits may not be enough for slam.(quote Arclight)" ... seems to be quite nicely compensated by the way controls are asked in the suits where opener has his/her doubts. "If responder has a minimum 2NT bid (lets say 13 with 3 card support) (quote Arclight)" AQJ (trump suit) KJxxx Qxx xx 13 HCP+ 3 card support. Maybe i would bid a pre-emptive 4.. But with 8 losers this hand does not qualify for 7BS_2NT.. i think...

11-24-2006, 01:38	#28
BnBeever Teacher Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Cheshire Posts: 21 Country:	Re: The 7BS Structure Arclight: Re - 2) Axx ...... KQxx ....KQJTx .. Axx ....Axx ...... x ....xx ........ AKxxx 1H-3D-3S-4D-4S-5H-6C-6S-7H What is 4D? 4D is the response to opener's 3S (1430) - so 4D shows 2 KC, but no Q. And yes, when there are only 8 trumps between the hands, and there is a 4-1 trump split offside, then the slam will probably go down. But hey, live a little :-) As for why 'experts' don't use such a 2NT response, I think acceptance of 'traditional wisdom' plays the main role. But I'll put it this way - if I knew of a better slam bidding structure (without damaging game-bidding) then I'd be using it! Ronald: Re 1-3 in SAYC or 2/1: I suspect this shows a 5+ diamond suit and 13+ / 16+ pts, similar to ACOL, tho I may be wrong. It certainly isn't any kind of splinter unless agreed beforehand. Re bidding unmakeable slams in 7BS - the LTC (assuming partner has 7 losers) gives opener a guide to the 'safe exploration level', and he should only go beyond this with good reason to do so (i.e. he can't see too many losers even if partner has nothing else besides what has already been shown). Once in a while we bid a slam that turns out to have below 50% chance of making (when dummy appears), but the large majority are 50% or better. Ben.

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